Monday, April 23, 2007

Women: Submission

So the here is the anticipated "submission" blog. I have a few things to say about it. The Ephesians passage is very popular for keeping women in submission and men in power in the relationship. Here's the passage:

22Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

~Ephesians 5:22-33

This passage embodies the entire reason we had this discussion in the first place. I don't have much more to say about this because my other blogs pretty much sum up my feelings about the subject. However, I will tell you about some of the things I learned about this passage and shared with my Bible study. First, we discussed the meaning of submission. Everyone else defined it as "respect" which I can totally agree with. However, when they were talking about how relationships/marriages should work, it was the women following blindly behind what the husband is passionate about and called to. The feeling I got about their definition of respect was letting the man get his way and make all the decisions, and not disputing his decision. When looking at the dictionary definition of submit, this is what I found:

sub·mit /səbˈmɪt/ –verb (used with object)
1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others

4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose
5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.
6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.
7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.

It was pointed out that I saw and talked about submission in a negative light. When looking at this definition and also how I have seen it work in relationships, I don't see how I couldn't. I know and understand that for a gazillion years, the church has taught that women should submit to their husbands and that is what God has called all women to do, but is that necessarily true? For a long time, the church in America supported slavery and the discrimination of black people. Churches wouldn't let African-American people through their doors. They did not see them as equals, even though God created them equal. Today, churches no longer deny African-Americans access to their church-- they changed their minds and realized that God created all people the same, no matter what their skin color was. Why can't the church change their mind about women as well?

And speaking of the treatment of women in regards to the treatment of African-Americans, I was told an interesting analogy about what women are doing to themselves when they support inequality in relationships-- it is like an African American supporting slavery during the Civil Rights Movement... Why wouldn't women want to have an equal say? Why would they want to give all of the power to men? I understand that women have been taught that they need to submit and that may be a conviction of theirs, but I do not understand how, when faced with the idea of equality, they resist it.
I have to admit that at one point in my life (not too long ago, actually) I believed what I'm now against. However, I started to research this topic and really look into how I felt about the subject after a casual conversation with a great friend of mine. We were talking about relationships and what our ideal relationships are. I mentioned that I wanted the man as a leader, and she asked me why. I tried to give her an answer but I'm sure it was non-understandable. She said that she didn't want a man to rule over her, that she is a strong woman with her own ideas and her own passions. I referred her to another friend who had a lot more answers than I could give. I ended up talking to my "referral"-friend about it and that's what really got the ball rolling. I have since made up my own mind and done my own research. The whole point of this is, when confronted with a different idea and a different way of thinking (especially a way that gives me more of a say and role in a relationship), I did not run away or resist it-- I embraced it and took it on myself to explore and discover my beliefs. I could just as easily gone the other way and came to believe even stronger that women should be submissive to men. But I made up my own mind-- I wish that all women would do the same. Actually, I wish everyone would do that and make up their own minds about everything the church teaches (but that's a whole other blog post idea... and I'm not getting into that now). How much more freeing is life when you own it and embrace your convictions as your own. They're not all going to be the same-- it'd be boring if they were-- but at least everyone would know why they believe what they believe.

Now that all that is out of the way, here was my explanation of the Ephesians passage. First off, the book of Ephesians is a letter. Each verse was not it's own separate idea or theology--it is one long idea within the whole letter. Taking one verse out of a bunch (don't ask me to count!) is pretty much "Bible dipping." (I wrote a whole blog about that a while ago.) People pick and choose verses out of the Bible to support their ideas, giving no room for God to move and actually speak to them. God speaks of love, respect, and grace throughout the entire Bible, so why would those verses not speak of those as well? The verses must also be taken in context.

That's the other point: The letter to the Ephesians was a letter to a specific culture and city. The people of Ephesis (is that right?) had laws about women being submissive and that men rule women. So when Paul told women to be submissive to their husbands, he was telling them to follow the law. God calls us to follow His laws, but to also follow the laws of the country/city we're living in. And if we break the laws of our government, we are breaking the law of God. If the women all decided to stop being submissive in that culture, there would be mass chaos and mayhem. They would be out of control and not constructive in changing their lives. However, women in the US have full rights... so wanting and demanding equal rights is not against the law. The law actually encourages it. But women aren't embracing that. They are taking their equality to the voting booths, but not to their own homes. Isn't their homes the place that has more meaning? Being able to vote is useless if you aren't equal in the eyes of your husband. More than likely, and I'm just speculating here, submissive wives' views in politics greatly weighs or even mirrors their husbands' views, so they really aren't having a different voice anyway. But that's just speculation.

Last but not least, the man's call. They are not called to dominate over their wives. They are called to love and respect their wives as they love their bodies. I don't see men demeaning their bodies, putting them down, making their bodies inferior to their mind. They treat it with respect and love and spend hours at the gym/working out making it all that it can be. That doesn't sound like domination to me! Men are called to lift their wives up, help them along their journey in becoming the women they were called to be, to respect their wives and love, see, and treat them as Christ sees and loves them-- not as lesser beings, but as one and the same. Christ was not about power and domination, so why are men "called" to do so? That is one thing I can say I do not understand. But women are also called to respect their husbands, so let's not forget that. But respect is not interchangeable with submission. Respecting your husband/wife does not mean they are better than the other. It is an expression of love. If you love your wife/husband, you will respect them. Simple as that!

All in all, the main point in all of this blogging and discussion is that women are equal. (did I really have to say that?) And they need to fight for the right to be so in their relationships. They need to stand up for themselves. They are not called to rule over their husbands as much as their husbands are not called to rule over their wives. They are called to mutual respect and love. They should submit to each other and learn to compromise. And women should stand up together and encourage each other to live the equal life that God created all women to live. Men and women are called to love as Christ loves the church-- you do that, and you can't go wrong!

Here are a few websites that have more info on equality in relationships, the church, etc.:

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/bib_eq_101.shtml

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/award_winning.shtml

http://www.jesuscreed.org/?cat=27

8 comments:

Unknown said...

Great post katie! I think Paul is very passionate about equality in Christ and how we can not take on a role of superiority based on religion, ethnic origin, sex, social status etc. For Paul at the core of his philosophy is this idea of cruciform service - are lives are called to be like Christ as we live to love and serve others.

The Ephesians passage is a classic example of Paul campaigning for equality and setting it in the context of Christ's own cuciform life - in Christ we see love and submission and it is through being obedient to the father that he gets exalted, the trinity exists in this state of mutual submission to each other.

If we are created in this image of the triune god such that it takes humanity as male and female to do perhaps as part of th recovery of our identity is about learning to submit to each other? or maybe that's what it means for a man to love in such a way that is selg giving and other serving and for a woman to submit is to love in the same way?

What does that mean to love in a way that we are prepared to lay down our rights to each other?

Anonymous said...

You are watering down the Bible and using misinformation based upon your own feelings rather than doing real research.

Your research is fallible because you already went into it with a preconceived notion.
1. You used only one verse - which happens to be the only one that is spotlighted in the media.
2. You used the English definition of submission rather than finding out what the author's real word was and what it means.

So let me help you out.

First, you are dead-on accurate about how a husband should treat his own wife. This you embraced whole-heartedly and I commend you for it. However, you watered down the rest to fight the conviction of God's Word speaking to you.

Did you realize that Paul mentions this in other books (letters) to other churches and people in the New Testament?
To the Church in Corinth:
1 Corinthians 11:3
To the Colossians:
Colossians 3:18
Do you want to hear it from someone other than Paul? How about Peter?
1 Peter 3:1-6

So far, just from what's found in the New Testament, we know that it wasn't just the church, or culture, or city of Ephesus. It was to people, all people. Now just in case you try to wiggle out of this one by citing that it was for a certain time, let me offer you the following verses straight out of the books of law (that's the first five books of the OLD Testament):

Numbers 30

The whole chapter talks about the relationship between a daughter and father and wife to husband and the father/husband's ability to override her decisions. First, note how the chapter starts off:
"This is what the LORD commands:"
And how it ends:
"These are the regulations the LORD gave Moses concerning relationships between a man and his wife, and between a father and his young daughter still living in his house."

This wasn't written by Paul or Peter; it was written by Moses. It wasn't just written as advice to a certain people or culture either: it is the law God handed down to all mankind, for all ages.

The verses speak of submission and the ability of the husband to decide for his wife, and also the same for the father over his daughter who is still in his house.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to God's Law concerning women and many, many examples in the Old Testament of God's intent for hierarchies in human life, even since the very beginning in Genesis:
Genesis 3:16b: "Yet your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

So when you actually do the research throughout the Bible, you will find that your assumption of "Bible-dipping" is completely inaccurate and false.

As for your definition of the word "submit":

Try defining the Greek word "hupotasso" (what we translate as "submit", but rather the Greek is a thought pattern spanning more than just one word). If you want to know what the author (Paul) is saying, make sure you are first trying to define HIS words, not a word that was given for the sake of a single word from a translation.

In closing, everyone (man and woman) are called to submit - and to do so willingly. We submit to each other in caring for each other, to our governments as this is right, and ultimately every soul upon this Earth must (without choice or option) submit to God:

Romans 14:11
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

Don't be afraid of the Bible or God's Will for us. Don't try to water down the Word so as to try and lessen the conviction of the Word. Open up to the Spirit and let Him talk to you.

Kate said...

Anonymous--
Thank you for your comment. Although I do not agree with what you said, I appreciate you sharing your point of view.

Anonymous said...

Amein to what Annonymous said!!! So much edification in your comment...
The law spoken of is not the world or us law but the law which Yahuwah (God) commanded, through Moshe (Moses)
The Word also tells us that we shall not conform to the ways of the world. (incl the US) but that we be transformed by the renewing of out minds (Romans 12:2) In our submission to our husbands we are also proving what is right and well pleasing to the Most High. Women need to be renewed and transformed even more so... lets face it, it is by a woman (Eve/Hawwah) that sin first was introduced to the world. And that is why the father made the man to rule over his woman. Because he knew that just as Eve/Hawwah listened to the voice of the serpent in the garden, women for the generations to come would do the same. Asking well why do I have to submit and making excuses not to. Yes the apostles spoke to many people in many cities, but does it not apply to today. Lets look at America the beautiful, there are many women in leadership, usurping authority over men in the homes, churches and in the world. Does that mean its right. It is not righteous. Read Isaiah 4:
Heres verse 12:12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

It may be natural to the those in the world but it is not for the one who is seeking to serve the most High. Annonymous has given the many scriptures that testify to that.

Part of taking up the Messiah Yahshua's stake is following the fathers law, denying ourselves.

Though the flesh is weak, the spirit is willing.

And yes we are to fololow the LAW of the government, as long as it doesn't interfere with the most High's laws. There were men who were willing to die for their subnission to the father: Read about Daniel who was thrown in the lions den, and the father delivered him. Shadrach, Meshac, and abednego (Dan 3:16) who would not bow down and worship an image/idol and were thrown into the furnace. Those who put them in the furnace were killed on the spot. Shad, Mesh, and Abed were unharmed. The most High's law superceded Mans law to those who serve/submit to him. And there is salvation in it!!! HalleluYah Salvation is safety, deliverence, soundness of mind!

Back to the original discussion: The command to submit to your husband is not your husbands command it is the Heavenly Father's command. Amein? Amein!

Awesome post Beloved in Messiah.

Kate said...

AliYah--
Thank you for your comment. As I said about anon's comment, I disagree with what you say, but I appreciate your contribution.
Although Eve was deceived, it was Adam who knowingly chose to sin and take a bite of the apple. Also, the Bible says that man and woman were made equal and it was only after the fall that God said that man would rule over woman. It was not a command, but a statement of what was going to happen-- just like pain during childbirth. Since God's original design was for the man and woman to be equal, I believe we should strive towards the beauty and equality that was in the world before the fall.
Although, as I said before, disagree with what you said, I do appreciate that you came on here and commented!

Anonymous said...

...please where can I buy a unicorn?

Bro Joe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bro Joe said...

Bro Joe Here...
Part of finding the meaning of a passage is to look up the English meaning of the word. What does "submission" mean? But one must go one step farther in asking the question of what does "hypotasso" mean? Does it mean submission and if so in what way? Going one step more in the learning process one asks the question of what does the grammatical structure of Ephesians 5:21 have to do with the whole discussion.

http://abrahamswalk.blogspot.com/2010/03/ephesians-chapter-5-new-translation.html Has a different manner of translating that makes more sense to me. Check it out.

Ephesians 5:21 "21Submitting together in terror of Anointed One, 22the women with their own men thus to the Lord-Master.." This changes the whole discussion. It also is much more understandable to the idea of "oneness" in the body that Paul promotes in the entire letter to the Ephesians.